INTERVIEW BY RUTH BOWMAN
SMITHSONIAN | JULY 28-AUGUST 20 1980

RUTH BOWMAN: The furniture was an ongoing project throughout all the other projects?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Yes, I think so. Off and on -- and mostly on. Yes, during the War we worked on . . . we had been working on the furniture and had been doing the experiments that we felt had to be done. But right in the middle of that, the War made it impossible to get materials, you know, for anything to be done. We also felt an obligation of what we could do to help the situation. We began by talking to an old friend of Charles's who was in the Navy and heard about this terrible condition: the leg splints that were being used, which were metal, a scarce material. Also, the design of them was so bad that it was actually contributing to deaths rather than helping anyone. So we felt, well, this is a material that could well be used, the molded plywood, and developed that early on and made the equipment, and it was used by the Navy and so forth. People said it really saved many lives. And that was a very good base for the continuation of the work, learning about the nature of molded plywood and being able to make that many experiments.

RUTH BOWMAN: And then after the War you went . . . ?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Went right back to it, right.

RUTH BOWMAN: Back to the chairs.
RAY KAISER EAMES: Back to the chairs.

RUTH BOWMAN: In terms of communication, this is a continuity, isn't it? The idea is that these images come at you in this kind of way?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Charles didn't like to have time wasted. He wanted to use time. He felt that if you could pack something in on a film — for instance, in the peep shows that we made, you have two minutes worth of very tightly packed bits of information; it's better to see it over again, if necessary, than to take twice as long, boring some people for the sake of explaining to others.

RUTH BOWMAN: When I was here once visiting you, you were at a desk with a huge pile of transparencies. I just wondered, in your way of working here, did each project have its own technique of organization? Was it organized differently each time from start, or were there customary ways of handling a project?
RAY KAISER EAMES: At this moment I couldn't possibly say. We just did whatever was necessary.

RUTH BOWMAN: To try to separate the products from the ideas at the Eames studio is impossible.
RAY KAISER EAMES: I think so.

RUTH BOWMAN: So the work, the way of working is very important. You've spent long, long hours in this place, haven't you?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Right, as many as possible. Seven days a week, day and night.

RUTH BOWMAN: Day and night?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Just because it seemed to take that long. It wasn't that we decided to do it, it was just that in order to do something we had to take as much as possible -- it became more and more difficult because there'd be less time, less quiet time, more people involved, and they, too, found it took more time, and so they would be using that time here. So there was less time to quietly study and think and reflect.

RUTH BOWMAN: You were called on once -- at the Moscow Fair -- you were called on quite frequently, weren't you?
RAY KAISER EAMES: There was always more to do than was possible.

RUTH BOWMAN: But you didn't say no very often? Or you said no a lot?
RAY KAISER EAMES: I said no a great deal. Oh, I've always had to say no a great deal. But even to do the simplest thing, it seemed to take a great deal of effort.

RUTH BOWMAN: You always use the best materials, the most appropriate . . . ?
RAY KAISER EAMES: "Appropriate" is Charles's word, which I love. If it's "appropriate," it works. If you say "best," it might mean the most expensive, or fine, or something, but if it's "appropriate," it works for the job.

RUTH BOWMAN: How did your mother feel about your being an artist?
RAY KAISER EAMES: I guess that was one great bond that Charles and I had. I never thought of myself as an "artist" and couldn't bear the word, I think, as a painter. He hated the use of the word "artist," because he felt that "artist" was a degree of whatever it was. You know, to talk about a musician, or an artist, seemed ludicrous to him. Isn't it true? When you think of it? I was always interested in drawing, always interested in color, and my mother was . . . you know, it was no change, it was a continuation.

RUTH BOWMAN: When did Herman Miller come into this?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Herman Miller came in, having seen his show. It's been documented many other ways, I know. Ralph Caplan's written about it. George Nelson brought the de Prees, who were the head of the Herman Miller company, to the show in New York. He had recently been appointed director of design. And he said that they should be doing something, you know, making this furniture. And they thought that was a good idea. Other people had been talking -- Hans and Shu Knoll talked about it. But Charles was, I think, drawn to the de Prees because he thought they were very straightforward, honest business people, as opposed to the Knoll idea of "image" and "international design." Naturally, Shu was a very good friend. She was practically an adopted daughter of the Saarinens, of Eliel and Loya Saarinen. She [Florence Schust] was an orphan, and they took care of her there, so she sort of grew up at Cranbook too, which has made a bond over the years.

RUTH BOWMAN: Both philosophical, and almost like family.
RAY KAISER EAMES: Oh, yes. I think they had always wanted Eero to marry her, because they felt very close to her. She was a darling, a neat person.

RUTH BOWMAN: And this relationship has continued over forty years with Herman Miller?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Yes, absolutely.

RUTH BOWMAN: And the production laboratory has always been here?
RAY KAISER EAMES: "Production laboratory" -- that's a different way of saying . . . . I don't think of it that way.

RUTH BOWMAN: How do you think of it?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Studio, office -- we call it "shop," the place where we work has been here, and the early production was here. Part of this building . . . it was unbelievable when you think back about it, having the actual production here, as it was during the War, actually making the splints and making the furniture, making all the experiments. Then it becoming Herman Miller and having half of the building be production and the rest of it our own, making films, walking over cables. The people who produced the things, you know, were all local people, many of whom had worked . . . most of them, as a matter of fact, who had worked on the splints during the War. They were made up of housewives and all mixtures of people, various carpenters and really, just sweet people that we'd known for many years.

RUTH BOWMAN: In the period of the Fifties, what was the major activity that went on here after the furniture really got rolling?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Well, it was always experiments in furniture, furniture continuing to develop, and . . . I can't remember, I have to think about the Fifties. There was an exhibition, the first "Good Design" show during the Fifties. During the Fifties I think the major thing was the "Sample Lesson." The Sample Lesson ("A Rough Sketch of a Sample Lesson for a Hypothetical Course") was '52-53, and out of that came the development and communications films. "Communications Primer" was one of the first ones. Then I think it was through that that IBM became interested. Naturally, John Neuhart and Marilyn know a great deal about this. People thought the Sample Lesson was a film, but it was just pieces patched together. After that, we then made it into a film which exists. And the toys were in the Fifties, too.

RUTH BOWMAN: Tell me a little bit about the games. Is that in connection with education, or just fun?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Both. I mean, Charles never made any distinction between fun and education and play. Never any distinction. He was always interested in -- I've been interested in my way also . . . the toy became the first thing. We talked about hiding under the table as children and having a world to play in. The cloth over the table became such a world -- we all knew that. And the idea of structure -- what holds up -- anything that holds up has to do with structure. We developed this, and someone -- I don't remember how we met these toy people. Yes, I do. It was a terrific catalyst. John Michael grew up in Chicago and knew a great many people, and his family was involved in transportation, and he was not interested particularly, but he was involved. Somehow or other we got to know each other. Then he said, "Oh, I know a man who is interested in manufacturing things and you should get together." And that's how we developed "The Toy."

RUTH BOWMAN: Do you have a lot of research put aside for that?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Well, objects. I don't know what research is, but we just have many, many objects that should be in it. I've said it and it bothered me so when I saw it in print, but I'll say it again, I can't see it happening. It takes more than one person. Today, it would take some crackpot who would want just to be able to do something.

RUTH BOWMAN: Someone who knows a great deal about quality.
RAY KAISER EAMES: It doesn't turn out to be that at all -- it has to be somebody who just can't stand not having it done. I need to know technical things that I don't know. Charles knew about shooting, which I don't know about at all, but it was just second nature to him. You know, the physical shooting was just an extension of himself, and you can't do that by the clock.

RUTH BOWMAN: So that's what you mean by "crackpot."
RAY KAISER EAMES: Crackpot -- someone who just feels it's absolutely necessary -- who has the ability and feels it's necessary to do. But there just isn't anyone. Maybe in many years there will be someone else who will come along and want to do it. But there are very few people who . . . .

RUTH BOWMAN: But you have projects that you are working on now.
RAY KAISER EAMES: Oh, yes. Projects.

RUTH BOWMAN: And you're comfortable with that?
RAY KAISER EAMES: I don't know what that means.

RUTH BOWMAN: I mean you're doing them.
RAY KAISER EAMES: I'm not comfortable at all, not at all, not at all.
RUTH BOWMAN: Well, that seems logical.

RUTH BOWMAN: When it came to hiring the people who worked here, who really did that? You both did it together?
RAY KAISER EAMES: I suppose so. I think we spoke of it briefly the other day, but I just don't know how that was done. I know how it didn't happen. If someone wanted just to be here, they'd say, "I want to just come and sweep the floor or something," and Charles would always say, "Can you really sweep the floor? Very few people know how." That just separated it, as someone who could contribute as opposed to wanting to be in an atmosphere -- and it's usually a fake atmosphere -- you know, their idea -- "Oh, how wonderful it would be to be here. You all have so much fun." And that would just drive us all up the wall, because it's day-by-day, minute-by-minute and you don't call what happens fun.

RUTH BOWMAN: But for people who had worked as hard as you and Charles had worked, there was an awful lot of smiling around here.
RAY KAISER EAMES: That's true, but you can't say, "Oh, how joyous it all is," because that's not part of it. We did, actually, but the work just had to be done.

RUTH BOWMAN: I liked the part where you said that you took only those things that you really wanted to do.
RAY KAISER EAMES: That's right.

RUTH BOWMAN: And there never were any times where there was nothing to do?
RAY KAISER EAMES: No, I can't find any holes here.

RUTH BOWMAN: And economically it always went smoothly as well, or were there times when it was difficult?
RAY KAISER EAMES: Well, it seems to me it was always difficult. It was always difficult because people at the office would do something over and over, and the costs would run up, and people would say, "Oh, but that's the way Charles wants it," you know, "he wants it to be perfect." He never wanted it to be perfect and ignore costs, just to hope to be within it, but the idea would be translated to "it didn't matter," as long as it was perfect. That was the only thing that mattered. So it's always been a struggle, always.

RUTH BOWMAN: People in the design field talk about the Eames style of exhibition, and some of . . . .
RAY KAISER EAMES: I've absolutely no idea what they mean!